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Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

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Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by 1059860 on Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:35 pm

This thread serves the purpose solely for people who have 1 or 2 questions, or very simple questions such as confusion about a certain part of the rule or why moving this is better than that, etc. These questions should be simple and short, and they probably don't deserve a thread of their own since they can be easily answered, so just post the question here and others will answer them.

For question posters: Please put a Q: in front of your question to indicate that is a question.

For answerers: Please put @ Username or quote his or her post to answer the question so there will not be any confusion of which answer pertains to which questions.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by DoubleU on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:30 pm

Q: What is brinkmate?

But I think I know already: just like check (oute) is a threat to capture the king in one move, checkmate (tsume) is check you can't escape, threatmate (tsumero) is a threat to checkmate in one move, and truly win in two, and brinkmate (hisshi) is threatmate you cannot escape; thus, check and checkmate are to a ladder or shicho in Go, what threatmate and brinkmate are to a 'loose' ladder (yurumi shicho) in Go. But am I right?

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by Lukas1 on Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:50 pm

DoubleU wrote:Q: What is brinkmate?

But I think I know already: just like check (oute) is a threat to capture the king in one move, checkmate (tsume) is check you can't escape, threatmate (tsumero) is a threat to checkmate in one move, and truly win in two, and brinkmate (hisshi) is threatmate you cannot escape; thus, check and checkmate are to a ladder or shicho in Go, what threatmate and brinkmate are to a 'loose' ladder (yurumi shicho) in Go. But am I right?
@DoubleU:if you compare it to go, brinkmate would i compare to a net. (You know net, right?) Threatmate in go would mean a move, which if not answered would kill a group. And check would be atari.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by hirohiigo on Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:28 pm

DoubleU wrote:Q: What is brinkmate?

But I think I know already: just like check (oute) is a threat to capture the king in one move, checkmate (tsume) is check you can't escape, threatmate (tsumero) is a threat to checkmate in one move, and truly win in two, and brinkmate (hisshi) is threatmate you cannot escape; thus, check and checkmate are to a ladder or shicho in Go, what threatmate and brinkmate are to a 'loose' ladder (yurumi shicho) in Go. But am I right?

Good question. I'll cover all the definitions of mate (check, checkmate, threatmate, brinkmate) in this post.

Check:

In Japanese, 王手 (oute). A check is a move that threatens to capture the opponent's king in the next move.



Sente has just played R-5e, checking Gote's king. Gote has to move his king, otherwise it will be captured.

Checkmate:

In Japanese, 詰み (tsumi). Checkmate is a situation where the king is completely surrounded and cannot avoid capture in the next turn.



The gold and pawn working together have delivered checkmate to Gote's king. He can't escape from the gold's attack, and capturing the gold would simply lead to recapture by the pawn.

Initiative Moves:

Before I discuss threatmate, I have to discuss initiative moves. An initiative move is one that approaches the king without delivering check. Take this example:



It will take two moves to be able to check the opponent's king. P-1d and then P-1c+ are called initiative moves - they approach the king. The following moves (K-1a +P-1b mate) are mating moves, not initiative moves. Therefore, it will take two initiative moves to mate this king. This is an important concept to understand when calculating whether or not you can win during the endgame.

Threatmate:

In Japanese, 詰めろ (tsumero). A threatmate is a situation that threatens to checkmate the opponent's king in the next initiative move.



This is a simple threatmate. Sente threatens to checkmate Gote in the next move with G*5b.



This situation is also a threatmate. In the next move, Sente is threatening G-2b +Rx2b N*2c mate. This is an example of a threatmate with more than one move (but one initiative move).

Brinkmate:

In Japanese, 必死 (hisshi). A brinkmate is an irremovable threatmate.


(金二 = 2 golds in hand)

This is an example of brinkmate. Gote has no way to move the threatmate on his king. Even with R*4b, a good defense, he is still mated by G*3b Rx3b G*4a.


Last edited by hirohiigo on Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by grayswx on Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:35 pm

Q: What is a vanguard pawn?

I've heard this term a lot, but I'm never quite sure what it means.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by Lukas1 on Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:41 am

grayswx wrote:Q: What is a vanguard pawn?

I've heard this term a lot, but I'm never quite sure what it means.
grayswx: A vanguard pawn is a pawn at e rank, which is protected by other piece, like general, or a knight or lance. Vanguard pawns make strong pressure at opponent, as these pawns cannot be taken out simply. These pawns stop opponent's attack or restrict movement of pieces like bishop(actualy by blocking bishop's diagonal), or stoping opponent's silver general to advance. I really would like to demonstrate it, but system of our webpage to generate shogi positions is crashed at the moment and I hope, we will fix it soon.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by hirohiigo on Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:09 pm

grayswx wrote:Q: What is a vanguard pawn?

I've heard this term a lot, but I'm never quite sure what it means.



These pawns are examples of vanguard pawns. They are e rank pawns that attempt to keep your opponent's pieces stuck in their camp by preventing them from pushing their pawns. While by themselves they would be quite weak (they could simply be taken), generally a vanguard pawn is well-defended so that it continues to do its job as long as possible until you can breach your opponent's camp.

The most common vanguard pawns, especially in low-level amateur games, are pawns on 1e and 9e. Consider how powerful they are: They reject your opponent from making a powerful lance attack, give an effective escape route for your king in the endgame, and allow you to make powerful drops from the edges throughout the game. They are also well-defended by the lance.

Lukas1 wrote:I really would like to demonstrate it, but system of our webpage to
generate shogi positions is crashed at the moment and I hope, we will
fix it soon.

Why not use an Ajaban page? They are free to create and offer a diagram generator - it's what I've been using to make most of my diagrams. Here is an example of one of mine. You can create your own by replacing id=shogibanforlashogi in the URL with any id you want, such as id=ajabanforlukas
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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by Lukas1 on Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:04 pm

hirohiigo wrote:
Why not use an Ajaban page? They are free to create and offer a diagram generator - it's what I've been using to make most of my diagrams. Here is an example of one of mine. You can create your own by replacing id=shogibanforlashogi in the URL with any id you want, such as id=ajabanforlukas
I like our system, it can be found at http://kifu.shogi.sk (it's in english actualy). And it's finaly working, so I will demonstrate vanguard pawns, as i already intended:


Suppose this as real game. Although this position is not likely to happen, suppose, both players made some really strange moves, but Black's moves were better. Let's suppose, that black intended to block white and white's replies were completely wrong.

As you can easily see, pawns at 3e, 5e and 8e are all protected, so they can't be captured easily and not only that! Pawns at 3e and 5e prevent white from opening the bishop's diagonal, which is really very limiting. White's only hope is to open bishop's diagonal at first file, but this diagonal is already closed by that very same vanguard pawn at 3e. Moreover, if B1c, then black plays P1f, Px1f, Lx1f and bishop will run of course B2b, Lx1a, B1a. You can create something like a dangling pawn in first file anytime by supporting it by both droping lance or moving the rook to the first file. I guess that would be quite decisive attack against so much confined pieces.

Vanguard pawns are important, because they influence what happens on e rank. Whoever has the control of this rank is in better position, since such pawns slow down oponent's attack and also are threatning by strong attack with support of rook.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by hirohiigo on Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:14 pm

I like our system, it can be found at http://kifu.shogi.sk (it's in english actualy).

Oh this is nice. I like this a lot. I think I'll use this instead of Ajaban from now on, I especially like that it uses international notation.

Moreover, if B1c, then black plays P1f, Px1f, Lx1f and bishop will run of course B2b, Lx1a, B1a.

1. B-2b 2. P*1b might be a little bit better. If 3. Lx1b then 4. Lx1b+ forking the bishop and the knight. If 3. P*1c then 4. Px1a+ 5. Bx1a 6. Lx1c+ 7. Nx1c 8. L*1e 9. B-2b 10. P-2f and black is clearly better.



Not entirely important to your explanation but I think it's a situation worth considering in the diagram's situation.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by DoubleU on Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:18 pm

Q: In hirohiigo's diagrams such as the ones demonstrating check, mate, and initiative moves, what do the two characters mean in the Black player's hand that don't look like pieces? I'm guessing they mean "nothing", as in "no pieces in hand".


Last edited by DoubleU on Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:08 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Removed other question.)

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by BlueFlame90 on Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:27 pm

DoubleU wrote:Q: In hirohiigo's diagrams such as the ones demonstrating check, mate, and initiative moves, what do the two characters mean in the Black player's hand that don't look like pieces? I'm guessing they mean "nothing", as in "no pieces in hand".
A: That's right なし(nashi) = nothing, empty

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by shogi4fun on Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:39 pm

BlueFlame90 wrote:A: That's right なし(nashi) = nothing, empty
Look also here for more Shogi-Words: http://www.shogi.net/shogivocab/ Idea
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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by DoubleU on Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:07 pm

Q: What is the reason for the uchi-fu-tsume, or (illegal) drop of a pawn to give mate? My guess (and why not make things easy with my guesses?) is that it's just one way to keep pawns weak or something.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by Lukas1 on Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:26 pm

DoubleU wrote:Q: What is the reason for the uchi-fu-tsume, or (illegal) drop of a pawn to give mate? My guess (and why not make things easy with my guesses?) is that it's just one way to keep pawns weak or something.
Mainly it's only because of japanesse mentality. You see, there was unthinkable a simple farmer, or slave would kill or harm shogun, or someone higher in the hierarchy. So uchi-fu-tsume refers to this moral codex. Like a foolish pawn could kill great king. It's unacceptable by society. That's the reason behind, I believe. Maybe Hidetchi or Takodori should be answering this question, however, as they're japanesse.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by hirohiigo on Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:05 pm



I'm not entirely sure of the reason behind it. You could ask the same thing about chess - why is a stalemate a draw and not a loss for the stalemated player?

It certainly keeps the game interesting.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by DoubleU on Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:19 pm

hirohiigo wrote:

I'm not entirely sure of the reason behind it. You could ask the same thing about chess - why is a stalemate a draw and not a loss for the stalemated player?

It certainly keeps the game interesting.
Now that I can answer, or at least pretend to. In BattleChess, whenever a player mates another, since any mate is also a check, the checking piece takes an extra move and finishes off the king. In a stalemate, though, no chessman is checking, so none gains that privilege. The objective is to checkmate, after all, and stalemate makes that impossible. That's my take, anyway.

Oh, and was that a rhetorical question? I forget if this thread really is for just questions and not for discussions. If that's the case, then my apologies.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by hirohiigo on Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:27 pm

Thanks for the explanation, but it was a rhetorical question, yes. I understand why, in theory, stalemate exists as a draw, but I don't agree with it. Probably because I feel the objective of chesslike games should be to capture the king, not checkmate it. In stalemate, kind of like checkmate, the King has no way to avoid capture. I know in most chesslike games (Xiangqi, shogi, etc), stalemate is considered a checkmate, because after your next move you will certainly be captured.

I know it won't change just because I complain about it, but I completely disagree with chess's stalemate rule. Razz
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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by DoubleU on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:17 am

If you ask me, Western decorum is different from Eastern decorum, even though they're both decorum. In shogi (and xiangqi, which is less easily explained by me), the game takes so long with the drops and complicated- and slow-moving pieces that it has to speed up the game by making illegal moves result in loss, and the capture of the king a winning condition. In chess, no such things happen, so that's never necessary, and you have to win deliberately, and not because your opponent breaks a rule or leaves his king in check.

At least that's my take. Sorry if I wasted this thread with it, and I have more questions in the near future.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by takodori on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:52 am

It's tough to give a simple answer to a simple question. But without uchi-fu-dume rule, Watanabe's historical reversal to defend the title from 0-3 to 4-3 in the Ryuo-sen last year should not have occurred.(Watanabe got the first victory of the series in the 4th game thanks to that rule. If it's legal, then Habu should have taken the title from Watanabe to drop a pawn on 2g to mate Watanabe's king at the 131st move. Please refer to the game at http://live.shogi.or.jp/ryuou/kifu_archives/kifu_21/081126.html)
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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by DoubleU on Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:23 pm

Here's another one:

Q: What's the logic behind the various parts of the jishogi rule? (Like, why does less than 24 lose, etc.) I mean, I suppose not every rule has to have some hidden meaning to it, but I was thinking that it meant that if the starting setup was restored, except for the extra and/or lost pieces, it would be a matter of who (if anyone) has the advantage.

Or would this be better suited for a long thread?

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by 1059860 on Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:31 pm

@ DoubleU: I guess 24 is just a good "mid-point". Also, every non-major piece can eventually work like a Gold; that's why they all worth the same.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by takodori on Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:53 am

I'm not sure. I only know that the rule of Jishogi had not existed in the age of Shogunate in Edo era and that it was added sometime in 20th century after shogi games started to be published on newspapers.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by DoubleU on Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:33 pm

Q: What determines the value of an amateur kyu/dan grade? My guess is that it's simply a matter of, if you can generally beat someone under circumstances that favor no player, you are at least one grade better. If no such thing happens, you are about the same grade.

All I know is that in Go, one Handicap stone determines one grade, and in physical martial arts and other Oriental arts, one grade is one belt level, or one term's curriculum.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

Post by hirohiigo on Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:40 pm

@DoubleU: If I understand correctly, Kyu and Dan titles are awarded by clubs or associations if said club or association feels that a player has moved up a rank. I'm not entirely sure how it's determined, actually. I think in Europe it's based on ELO.
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