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Proper response to 16. ... B*5h?

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Proper response to 16. ... B*5h?

Post by hirohiigo on Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:36 pm

This is a game I just played on PlayOK against a usernamed c0ldplay.

http://www.playok.com/en/game.phtml?gid=sg&pid=356666&app=1

Code:
[Sente "hirohiigo"]
[Gote "c0ldplay"]
[Date "2009.09.24"]
[Event "?"]
[Round "-"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SenteGrade "1402"]
[GoteGrade "1354"]

1. P7g-7f P3c-3d 2. P2g-2f G4a-3b 3. P2f-2e B2bx8h+ 4. S7ix8h S3a-2b 5. G6i-7h
S2b-3c 6. S8h-7g K5a-4b 7. G4i-5h G6a-5b 8. S3i-4h P9c-9d 9. K5i-6i P9d-9e 10.
K6i-7i K4b-3a 11. K7i-8h K3a-2b 12. P5g-5f P4c-4d 13. P6g-6f G5b-4c 14. G5h-6g
P1c-1d 15. P1g-1f S7a-6b 16. P3g-3f B*5h 17. B*5b B5hx6g+ 18. G7hx6g G*5a 19.
B5bx4c+ G3bx4c 20. S4h-3g G5a-4b 21. S3g-2f P5c-5d 22. P3f-3e P3dx3e 23. S2fx3e
P*3d 24. P2e-2d P2cx2d 25. S3ex2d S3cx2d 26. R2hx2d P*2c 27. R2d-2e S6b-5c 28.
S*3a K2bx3a 29. R2ex2c+ G4b-3b 30. G*2b G3bx2b 31. +R2cx4c S5c-4b 32. B*5c
S4bx5c 33. G*4a 1-0

I think I did fairly well in this game, but c0ldplay's B*5h bugged me. I mirrored his move because I didn't know how to respond to it.

What's the proper defense against this kind of bishop drop?
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Re: Proper response to 16. ... B*5h?

Post by Lukas1 on Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:27 pm

i alone don't know the answer and am interested in good answer, but if you play bishop exchange opening, i am not sure, it's good to build yagura castle while your opponent has still bishop in his hand. If you play bishop exchange, you should just move your king from standart bishop diagonal and play rapid attack. Slow paced game of your choice gave white space to drop bishop in your camp. I recommend you to watch some of hidetchi's videos covering games with white's one lost move bishop exchange opening, you don't have to watch them all over again and again, but just notice how both players camp looked like until the point where bishops were dropped. But I am still interested in proper answer to that bishop drop. And white's choice of sacrificing the bishop wasn't very good as well, because it forced him to drop the gold from his hand on the board, so his attack was like gaining nothing, while you have won the gold(although it's not true, but since white had no attack at all and nor did you, you had with gold in your hand more attacking pieces)

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Re: Proper response to 16. ... B*5h?

Post by hirohiigo on Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:02 pm

One thing that I'm thinking is that I could have structured my castle a bit more against defending against a bishop. Like a structure such as this:



It gives less defense to 8g pawn but it does prevent a bishop drop like c0ldplay played.
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Re: Proper response to 16. ... B*5h?

Post by Koshiro on Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:45 pm

You could answer his move droping Bishop in 3h (or maybe 2g) threatning mate his B moving gold to 6h next move.

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Re: Proper response to 16. ... B*5h?

Post by 1059860 on Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:52 pm

I honestly don't see how that bishop drop is that good of a move. I mean, it's an effective sacrifice, but losing a Bishop on an Yagura Castle attack is harsh...

Your mirrored attack only was effective (as your attack became much easier with the 3b Gold missing was because his G*5a, which I think is a terrible move. Without that move, that Bishop is going nowhere as his camp was very well-defended from any kind of bishop movement at all. Had he saved that Gold for a later and more affective drop to defend, your attack could've easily been exhausted.

For him to give you Bishop for that Gold, and a static rook completely confined in his camp (when you have a Bishop that can be dropped at any time if either of his Rook or Silver moves & starting an attack, he can't even keep up with the defense. You could take a few turns just harden your castle a bit, or start a rapid attack, use the Bishop if you need to, and you can always repair your castle when you need to after you accumulate some pieces in hand since c0ldplay's attack wasn't going anywhere.

In conclusion, I don't think that Bishop drop was an effective attack at all and ignoring it would be enough. Just beware that it's there.

And I don't think making THAT castle (the one with Gold on 6h and King on 7h castle) was a good idea at that point. His rook-file pawn was completely unmoved, and his rook was on the default rank, so he could pull a Knight-supported Spearing the Sparrow and break your weakly-defended edge file and approach your King from the side that isn't as defended.

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Re: Proper response to 16. ... B*5h?

Post by hirohiigo on Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:23 pm

You could answer his move droping Bishop in 3h (or maybe 2g) threatning mate his B moving gold to 6h next move.

That's a good idea too. Thanks.

Had he saved that Gold for a later and more affective drop to defend, your attack could've easily been exhausted.

I'm not sure if I agree with this statement. Yes, the attack in its current form would have been exhausted had he not hastily dropped his gold. But why would I launch the same attack in that situation? Playing shogi is too dynamic to make such a claim. I attacked the way I did as a result of how he played, otherwise I would have spent more time building up my attack.

In conclusion, I don't think that Bishop drop was an effective attack
at all and ignoring it would be enough. Just beware that it's there.

I don't like the idea of ignoring it at all. It's even worse than a dangling pawn - if I ignore it, it will be very powerful if he gets the initiative, and he would be able to sacrifice it at any time to get a defender away from the issue point.

And I don't think making THAT castle (the one with Gold on 6h and King
on 7h castle) was a good idea at that point. His rook-file pawn was
completely unmoved, and his rook was on the default rank, so he could
pull a Knight-supported Spearing the Sparrow and break your
weakly-defended edge file and approach your King from the side that
isn't as defended.

I disagree with this as well. Spearing the Sparrow is a powerful attack, yes, but from the position he's in, it would take him 6 moves to build up enough of an attack to play this strategy. I would say that 6 moves is plenty of time for me to reposition myself to counter it, or make an effective rapid attack, before he can touch my castle position.
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Re: Proper response to 16. ... B*5h?

Post by takodori on Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:56 pm

How to punish 16 B*5h I would recommend is like this; G6g-6h B-4i+ G-6i(aiming at the next G-5i to kill the Horse). Gote(White) has no effective way to save it. The B*3h or B*2g Koshiro-san's recommends is also good. But I would like to kill the Horse without dropping a Bishop on Sente(Black)'s camp to keep it for attacking in the future.

Another tip. Before sacrificing the Silver on 3a, P-1e Px1e P*9b Lx1b would be needed to make the sacrifice more effective. If Gote(Whilte) dropped a pawn on 2b instead of G-3b, your Drogon would have had to go back from Gote's camp. If the Lance was invited to 1b, then you could have taken it by Dragon.
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Re: Proper response to 16. ... B*5h?

Post by 1059860 on Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:27 pm

hirohiigo wrote:
I disagree with this as well. Spearing the Sparrow is a powerful attack, yes, but from the position he's in, it would take him 6 moves to build up enough of an attack to play this strategy. I would say that 6 moves is plenty of time for me to reposition myself to counter it, or make an effective rapid attack, before he can touch my castle position.

Well I guess it all depends on the stance of how you look at it. I personally don't like the fact that I have to make a castle AND then remake it (spending more moves) while I could be attack, had my first attack get exhausted and he gets chance to attack. I just like a good and solid castle that lasts a whole game unless there is an imperative to change its formation.

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